SonicHacker141
battle network-er
i'll just take the blame for that.
What in the world is SRB2 Workshop?
- Thread starter Void Animates
- Start date
jenngra505
Member
So the permissions debate is still raging on to this day, huh? I have a lot to say about this based on the past of a different modding community. Unlike the SRB2 modding community, this community had (and still does have) an artist shortage so 99% of the mods made for it were entirely code-based, using sprites from other commercial games when necessary (Which was often). Despite this, the permissions logic persisted with people claiming that any edits of mods or even custom content that used small bits of code from another mod were deemed blasphemous. Any artist who didn't learn to code themselves would have to "sign an exclusivity deal" with one of the established coders or get shunned (or worse, permabanned), It reached a point where a modder would upon leaving the community declare someone as their "spokesperson" to continue enforcing the anti-portleg/bugfix/whatever rule despite them dramatically announcing their absence. These modders claimed that they set up the policies to prevent a surge of bad mods from releasing that would ruin the base game's reputation, but in reality, it was a fear that someone would outdo them using their own ideas, which is exactly what happened when someone rose to admin status while secretly disagreeing with the permissions logic and slowly disassembled those rules for an alternative ruleset inspired by Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike. Of course, the situation here is different as there are a lot of people spriting their OCs as SRB2 mods but I believe the coding side of things should be as open-source as the base SRB2. I also believe that "others may not maintain my submission, even in my absence." should not be an acceptable policy if 2.3 onwards are not completely retro-compatible with mods from 2.2. As for the community I mentioned earlier? They have entered a new renaissance age with the low-effort mods and mods that don't credit the original artists or coders being naturally weeded out of the message board while the high-effort mods get showered with praise.
PupDaNi
Hey-Hey-Hey-MOTHERFU-
To get a basic understanding of what you just said I'm gonna ask this, which do you prefer, WS or MB?
jenngra505
Member
Neither, but I think the MB has the potential to be the one I prefer if it changes its policies based on the suggestions in my post.
amperbee
thunderdome denizen
to get a basic understanding of the message, you can just... read it?
it could use a few line breaks to separate paragraphs and make it more readable, but it's otherwise pretty clear what the message is.
Coding a mod is not of the same caliber as making a modification to the base C code that SRB2 runs on, so having mod authors essentially follow the same license as the source code itself is a strange move to make.
Authored stuff belongs to the author, and it should be up to them to decide if they want to make it open source or not.
It should also be up to the author if they want their mod to exist in a newer version of the game.
Maybe the game does some physics changes that they don't like, or maybe there are a lot of breaking changes that require precision to make work. Maybe there were policy changes that the author does not agree with (which would be stupid petty, mind you).
Whatever the happening is, the author should be the one to decide where to take the mod next and how to tackle it, if they want to, instead of someone making a port because they want a port.
It may suck for someone if they were expecting [popular mod] to work in 2.3, but maybe there's an underlying reason for it that isn't being chalked up as "author lazy".
That's an understandable fear, but what can you do? Lay down the ground work for something, and if it works, someone will want more of it. And people will want to make their own take of [your thing]. Which is fine! That's how you get innovation.
It just gets muddy when they want to use your own work, usually with no regards for how you feel about it. Or how would it even work if your mod works in such an esoteric way that the new guy will have to make so many bandaid patches it would make the code stupid underperformant. I am exaggerating by the way, but that's an example.
It takes a little bit of effort to make your own version, but you get free knowledge on why are things like they are.
jenngra505
Member
If the author wants to be the one to decide where to take the mod next once 2.3 comes around, they should stay active in the community when the new version comes around so that they can make a port that does their vision justice. If such a thing would take a while and remaining silent runs the risk of portlegs, then a WIP thread for the official port should be made so people know that an official port is planned. If the modder turns out to be "stupid petty" but also talented (which has happened in the community I normally reside in), their pettiness is called out and things usually get worked out. If things don't work out, they get banned for reasons similar to Mystic getting banned resulting in either a Mystic Realm Community Edition situation or the exiled modder making their own message board to keep their strict rules intact.
As a modder of the game I mentioned in my original post, being able to use the code of other mods and experiment with it to see what makes it tick is the way I and many others in that community learned how to code original things in that game's proprietary modding language themselves. Keeping a mods code walled off from any form of further modification prevents people from being able to stand on the shoulders of giants.
amperbee
thunderdome denizen
This shouldn't be necessary.
EDIT: I literally had to ask lol
Mystic gave his express permission to the team working on the then still-in-progress port to do whatever they wanted with it.
After his ban (which, worth mentioning, had nothing to do with this topic), that permission went from "just that team" to "fully reusable for the community to use".
In this case, things did indeed work out.
Had they not, there'd be nothing to do about it except move on.
Why would you need to "stand on the shoulders of giants"?
When you make a mod, you make it because it's something you want to make, not because you want to outdo the biggest person in the room. Unless you're super competitive, I guess? lol
In any case, code from mods here are not "walled off" (we don't have that technology
).You are always allowed to use it for learning (and is in fact how most coders in this community got a hold of the Lua language).
Just not for editing something then releasing it without asking the OG guy. You don't learn anything from doing this.
Consider mentioning the name of the game whose community you're alluding to. It's easier to check the community with our own eyes instead of being given surface information of it, you know.
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jenngra505
Member
It's the Mugen community, while technically an engine and not a game. Editing a character to play completely differently is a common practice there as long as credit is given and effort is put in. Large chunks of character code by other authors are considered universal assets for certain playstyles. Check the Mugen Fighters Guild Discord server and ask about the horror stories of the permission era of the late 2000s if you want more information.
The Sin Heartless
Voluntary Exile
Since the lovely "friends" who had a little tussle with me months ago decided to reveal their true faces to me while refusing to silence me then & there, let me give you the bluntest of regards when it comes to this.
SRB2 MB is Tumblr, and WS the 4chan, and the conflict you have now is the end result of neither having community leaders who would do their hardest to salvage the situation. As a result of that, you have all the close circles and wonderfully opinionated & often rather self-absorbed people that come with it looking to bend the rules in their favor while the moderators who walked in to the job with the mindset of following orders get used as tools for said disputes like doormats people wipe their shoes on.
In particular, it is very ironic that despite the anti-Mystic faction that is currently in power gaining their revenge & in doing so fulfilling my desire for vengeance, we are still dealing with 2.0 & 2.1-related laundry nearly two decades later. The WS itself is just another faction among a multitude factions in this little game of close circles, the laundry of which has probably ruined the experience of so many new people who would have wished to be part of the SRB2 community, including me.
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And then there's the whole right to re-use conundrum that I feel is merely a front to the personal disputes. Let me blunt about this in a way that applies universally: If the author has no plans of supporting a particular work, then they have no right to hoard the intellectual property associated with it. If you want the protections, you should show active intentions of doing something with said intellectual property you hold on to. There are way too many punks on the internet who will abandon their works for years, resulting in them becoming broken clunkers that actively hinder every work that relies on those building blocks to function... a problem other people often couldn't fix because couldn't get consent from a person who has left the community.
There is only one person I know who has a legitimate claim under these principles regarding their stuff being ported without their consent, Glaber, as he has claimed that his friend was looking for someone to do the porting for him for a while, something that would take time. Whose friend is he again? That's right, GoldenShine, another honest person who has been dragged to hell & back by these forums. They're the creators that you honestly do not deserve to have around here to listen & deal with your nonsense, the real community leader material.
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Now I am fully aware that you will disregard my words. After all, you regard me as "nothing", as just another speck of dust under your shoes. But that just means I have no reason to respect you as an authority either. From my view, you have always treated me like dirt from the beginning... the only difference is you are finally openly admitting that after a whole decade of me being around in one form or another. I struggled for who knows how long to get things done, playing by your rules, and got nothing for it.
It's much like the life in the EU, constantly filled with endless middlemen who put endless paperwork between you and the fun stuff.
But I know an authority I can trust, a tradition beloved & respected within the entire Sonic community. People will gather yearly in hordes to watch it, to celebrate the creativity of the entire fandom. Perhaps even an imploding & radio-active community will seek to work together in order to avoid humiliation if they were forced to have to compete for the eyeballs. You know where this is going.
The Sonic Hacking Contest now allows mods from newer Sonic games. That includes established fan games like Sonic 3 A.I.R. It would be real unfortunate if I put the community under a spotlight by entering it with what I have, now would it? Let me leave you with that little thought, let it fester real nicely into a concoction of either renaissance of passionate insanity or disastrous ruin for this community. And I would get to fulfill a little promise I made to the man that served as a ray of light during my early adulthood days of apathy while doing so.
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Either way, my relationship with MB ends here. And if I already had a reputable neutral party to replace you warring band of partisans with, I'd also end my relationship with WS as well. I'm loyal to people, not some factions that try to twist my words & coerce me to do their dirty work.
I'll give my respects to Amperbee & Shanon on my way out, since they were the only people who tried to help me, GoldenShine for alerting me to the problems within this community & DoMikoto from WS for showcasing the 0.85 version of my first modded character, allowing it to reach a bigger audience than it would have otherwise.
I wish I could have interacted with these people with my real personality instead of relying on this dissociative mask to do so, but that is that, this is this. You can't get attached to people in these kinds of environments or have any expectations, doing so will ultimately break you in the modern day.
SRB2 MB is Tumblr, and WS the 4chan, and the conflict you have now is the end result of neither having community leaders who would do their hardest to salvage the situation. As a result of that, you have all the close circles and wonderfully opinionated & often rather self-absorbed people that come with it looking to bend the rules in their favor while the moderators who walked in to the job with the mindset of following orders get used as tools for said disputes like doormats people wipe their shoes on.
In particular, it is very ironic that despite the anti-Mystic faction that is currently in power gaining their revenge & in doing so fulfilling my desire for vengeance, we are still dealing with 2.0 & 2.1-related laundry nearly two decades later. The WS itself is just another faction among a multitude factions in this little game of close circles, the laundry of which has probably ruined the experience of so many new people who would have wished to be part of the SRB2 community, including me.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And then there's the whole right to re-use conundrum that I feel is merely a front to the personal disputes. Let me blunt about this in a way that applies universally: If the author has no plans of supporting a particular work, then they have no right to hoard the intellectual property associated with it. If you want the protections, you should show active intentions of doing something with said intellectual property you hold on to. There are way too many punks on the internet who will abandon their works for years, resulting in them becoming broken clunkers that actively hinder every work that relies on those building blocks to function... a problem other people often couldn't fix because couldn't get consent from a person who has left the community.
There is only one person I know who has a legitimate claim under these principles regarding their stuff being ported without their consent, Glaber, as he has claimed that his friend was looking for someone to do the porting for him for a while, something that would take time. Whose friend is he again? That's right, GoldenShine, another honest person who has been dragged to hell & back by these forums. They're the creators that you honestly do not deserve to have around here to listen & deal with your nonsense, the real community leader material.
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Now I am fully aware that you will disregard my words. After all, you regard me as "nothing", as just another speck of dust under your shoes. But that just means I have no reason to respect you as an authority either. From my view, you have always treated me like dirt from the beginning... the only difference is you are finally openly admitting that after a whole decade of me being around in one form or another. I struggled for who knows how long to get things done, playing by your rules, and got nothing for it.
It's much like the life in the EU, constantly filled with endless middlemen who put endless paperwork between you and the fun stuff.
But I know an authority I can trust, a tradition beloved & respected within the entire Sonic community. People will gather yearly in hordes to watch it, to celebrate the creativity of the entire fandom. Perhaps even an imploding & radio-active community will seek to work together in order to avoid humiliation if they were forced to have to compete for the eyeballs. You know where this is going.
The Sonic Hacking Contest now allows mods from newer Sonic games. That includes established fan games like Sonic 3 A.I.R. It would be real unfortunate if I put the community under a spotlight by entering it with what I have, now would it? Let me leave you with that little thought, let it fester real nicely into a concoction of either renaissance of passionate insanity or disastrous ruin for this community. And I would get to fulfill a little promise I made to the man that served as a ray of light during my early adulthood days of apathy while doing so.
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Either way, my relationship with MB ends here. And if I already had a reputable neutral party to replace you warring band of partisans with, I'd also end my relationship with WS as well. I'm loyal to people, not some factions that try to twist my words & coerce me to do their dirty work.
I'll give my respects to Amperbee & Shanon on my way out, since they were the only people who tried to help me, GoldenShine for alerting me to the problems within this community & DoMikoto from WS for showcasing the 0.85 version of my first modded character, allowing it to reach a bigger audience than it would have otherwise.
I wish I could have interacted with these people with my real personality instead of relying on this dissociative mask to do so, but that is that, this is this. You can't get attached to people in these kinds of environments or have any expectations, doing so will ultimately break you in the modern day.
jubbalub
Member
Hi, Hacking Contest judge here. I'm not sure why you decided to bring the Hacking Contest into this at all. If you are going to enter solely to spite some people we have no relation to, to shine a light on the SRB2 Message Board's "problematic" community (for lack of a better term), or to prove some other kind of point, don't bother. We do it for the fun. We don't want to be used as a cudgel against other Sonic communities and especially not a fan-made content community. That's not what it's for.
For the record, we don't allow SRB2 mods anyway (at least, not at the moment).
The Sin Heartless
Voluntary Exile
I was intending on trying to enter it anyway years ago, this little tussle is less relevant to that decision. The initial reason was to complete a promise I kinda made about making certain something specifically to pay respects to a content creator that served as that little ray of light during a certain time of my life. I would have helped the SRB2 community in return, to both help introduce new blood here & to have SRB2 claim its rightful place as one of the games featured in the contest.
The possibility of it being used to either rejuvenate the community or expedite the process of implosion is merely a result of circumstances this community has put itself in. The circumstances you now find yourself in by simply still being here. If I had my way in this situation, and I wouldn't be forced to act against my true nature by these people, I would rather preserve this community than put it to an untimely end. Anything to not have constant trauma-induced anxiety attacks about this place. Anything to break this dissociative mask that I've been forced to use for much of my life.
And you could definitely play a role in that, if you so desire. I'd rather choose closure over revenge if the opportunity is given. I would immediately recommend GoldenShine for his respectable show of dedication & passion in the SMS project & Glaber for being the one who has been here from the beginning as representatives... that is if they truly desire that role themselves.
But I'm not the one in control here, and honestly... neither are these moderators. This place is ultimately defined by its creator circles, and so will be the outcome of much of what will transpire here.
Sorry, I admittedly get confused when reading long messages like this. I'm assuming something happened to make you upset?
Could you explain to me what you were trying to say in less words? There's too much information for my 11pm brain.
I don't remember a "Goldenshine" and if this event happened, there's no evidence provided to support it. I'm sorry, but I don't know what you're talking about here.
It probably doesn't help that there are people who randomly message me on discord occasionally that I tend to forget, but after reading in another post that he was involved with SMS, I still don't remember that porting request if it even happened.
Edit:
Turns out I have interacted with Goldenshine in the past. I just didn't remember what with.
I found a discord DM but it wasn't about porting something.
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We actually went over a lot of this stuff, like, a year ago? The conflict you're talking about doesn't exist, the conspiracies you're going on about doesn't exist either. Last time you brought up GoldenShine, I asked him if he knew what you were talking about and he said the following:
So considering that, I don't have any clue who you're fighting for or why you think it's this person.
I don't actually understand why you're saying most of what you're trying to say, but I know enough from my own awareness of the facts + asking around that you're wildly out of touch with reality.
For example,
Unless you're a sockpuppet former dev, I don't remember you being around for any of the hullabaloo that happened in a dev and moderation team you aren't a part of, to be able to speak on it so authoritatively.
mb.srb2.org
I'm not going to disregard a single word you've typed -- in fact, I read it all. But the thing is, most of your words are just nonsense when held up to the facts. I can't let you whale on perceived enemies who don't even exist all day, someone is gonna get hurt.
For dragging random strangers into things, vagueposting about drama with others, a whole buttload of combative and aggressive behavior towards people who you don't even have a history with, plus a lot of twisting facts -- something I am very alarmed by and have no clue of your motivations on -- I'm gonna have to put an end to these screeds and give you a ban.
So considering that, I don't have any clue who you're fighting for or why you think it's this person.
I don't actually understand why you're saying most of what you're trying to say, but I know enough from my own awareness of the facts + asking around that you're wildly out of touch with reality.
For example,
what de fuck are you even on about?
Unless you're a sockpuppet former dev, I don't remember you being around for any of the hullabaloo that happened in a dev and moderation team you aren't a part of, to be able to speak on it so authoritatively.
No, I was actually very patient with your wildly misinformed and accusatory rants in the past, as evidenced by this thread here (for anyone else reading who wants to know I'm not lying).
[Open Assets] - Some MB Levels
IT'S your porn? it's most like on (russian) meme or just nsfw content. My porn? Uhh... no I did not make this.
mb.srb2.org
I'm not going to disregard a single word you've typed -- in fact, I read it all. But the thing is, most of your words are just nonsense when held up to the facts. I can't let you whale on perceived enemies who don't even exist all day, someone is gonna get hurt.
For dragging random strangers into things, vagueposting about drama with others, a whole buttload of combative and aggressive behavior towards people who you don't even have a history with, plus a lot of twisting facts -- something I am very alarmed by and have no clue of your motivations on -- I'm gonna have to put an end to these screeds and give you a ban.
Cheeseboi!
stupid
41. Freakin. Pages.
wth happened man
Post automatically merged:
Aight i’m actually gonna contribute now
tbh i think the workshop’s not gonna last long
Sonic1983 is literally called “Dead Rat” now
the crap’s falling apart man
the blue sphere section: basically just mb releases but kinda worse, it literally says these can be accepted on the mb
the red shpere section: you don’t need a single FRICKIN original asset to post these pieces of crap, and that pisses me off.
like imagine if 2.3 comes out and next thing you know your mod’s been portlegged
people forget that people here are actually decent
if you’re not lazy, take like, 2 minutes to send the creator a message like “can i use/port your mod” like man, if that doesn’t work you can still probably find an alternative or just make the crap yourself.
bottom line: the workshops for lazy/impatient guys who don’t know how to ask for crap
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SpeedyHedgehog
MY RING!
If the SRB2 WS was meant for Russians, then why didn't they just keep it in the same country? Because it's obvious that place wasn't meant for the rest of us. We could then have a separate site for SRB2 Small Mods/Portlegs.
Cheeseboi!
stupid
it wasn’t really meant for russians, it was meant for banned users/users who steal code or make portlegs
stickmanguy2
Working on cube mod lol and i can code a bit
Yep
SpeedyHedgehog
MY RING!
But isn't that illegal in some sort of way?
Cheeseboi!
stupid
I guess, but some people think that it's ok cuz it's a fangame.